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High Tech - Low Code
High Tech - Low Code
#1 Lets talk about tech, baby!
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Mário Cunha, Caroline Nicholas and Ian Tailor introduce themselves as the hosts of the upcoming podcast episodes. While explaining their backgrounds and relationship to the tech world, they start reminiscing about old school computers, consoles and discuss how technology has moved on since the good old days.
Right, it's okay. Okay. Let's do this. Let's do this, we can do this. Okay, hello, and welcome to the high tech low code podcast. This is our first foray in the podcast universe. And my name is Mario, let's try and explain a bit of what is our podcast here. So the three of us will will be the host of our show, the high tech low code podcast. And this is where we'll, where you will be able to experience the epic adventures from our guests that will relate to you anything that is related with low code development and high tech in the vast universe of IT. But enough of babbling about that, let's get to know our hosts of the show. And, ladies first, can you start with you, Caroline, tell us a bit about you your past, how you're involved with low code, and you know, all that jazz.
Caroline Nicholas:Okay, all right, I guess give me an overview, my sort of introduction to IT was pretty much from university onwards. So up until then, I didn't really own a computer etc, I started an IT computer course, not owning a computer, which is nuts. I mean, I've got a five year old who has two iPads, and you can use my phone so it just seems really weird. I didn't touch a PC until I was about 19 - 20 etc. When I started uni, so I did a business information technology course. And I liked the business side of it the IT side I was a bit ... about but I figured IT-ige we should all have IT experience and exposure. So I did that you know and I did things like programming did C++ programming, tried within about you know ICP protocols, I hated that data communication. So very IT techie heavy. And then there was all the nice business fluffy side, which I enjoyed the most. And I did a industrial placements, a four year course in the third year, we had to be placed in IT. So I was a help desk analyst at a very corporate company, and I hated that as well. And they actually put me off IT for a number of years. So for a number of years, I did office management, database administrator, PA work CIO, executive support, etc. And then I joined a large charity, I joined their IT department and their systems development team. And I got very much involved in projects, putting portfolios together, systems development, testing, that kind of thing IT procurement as well, IT contracting. So the whole shebang. And then further on, within that role, I got more involved in the engagement side of things, I became an engagement partner. And I always like talking to people about it changes because techie people are great, they're very clever, they know what they're doing. But I always like the people side because that was always neglected. You can roll out on team you know, digital transformation schemes and programmes and portfolios, but the end user always had been left behind, and always liked finding out the moans and niggles about what they hated about a new system, and how we could improve it. So I got very much involved in the change management side of IT, the user adoption, you know, how it worked, how it would tie in with their role, how they could use it, that's we get people using legacy systems for 15 - 20 years, we still mean as IT saying, we're going to change everything in interfaces, a lot of shock, horror, a lot of moaning and then I was that middle woman to come in and do the training, the demoing. I guess we took them around into liking the new IT, the new apps, the new digital era, the cloud era, a lot of people didn't trust things being on the cloud. So we have a lot of persuading to do of hundreds of people within the organisation. So I just really love being that bridge between IT and the business. And I love apps. I just like my phone, I'm glued to my phone. I love apps, I fell in love with apps when I realised I could turn on my heating from being on the train home. And that's when I was like: this is great! You have that hayver And you can turn the lights on and you know full burgers and things like that. So luxurious. Yeah, I just think phones are awesome. And you know, and apps and that evolved the whole power apps thing. And having joined OutSprint you know, I'm not a low code, official, either I'm not an expert, but I've you know, I've read up so much about it and it's just amazing what we can do, you know, in line with digital transformation, but that's really my IT journey. I'm someone that was very anti IT, you until it sort of affected my everyday life. And as I said, I've got a five year old, who loves, you know, iPads, he's got an iPad at my house, an iPadad dad´s house, he picks up my phone and use it, he really watches Netflix when he's bored in a restaurant, shopping queue. So it's a part of our everyday life. And, you know, and I still want to become an IT geek, I've got a real interest and, you know, within apps, and low code does interest me. So I'm really glad to be at OutSprint to be part of that journey. And you know, and also sharpen my own techie skills. So that's sort of my journey in a nutshell, really.
Mario Cunha:That's quite interesting, Caroline, I didn't know that you were helping, and you're probably still are helping people facing the nightmare of the digital transformation that happened.
Caroline Nicholas:Absolutely, we had so many people who were against it, who are happy to work with how they've worked for the last 15 - 20 years, which is great. But all the other systems are using they move on, the systems you're using become defunct, or they don't work on the new platforms we have. We have a lot of a mix, you know, platform of Windows and Mac as well. So we had to battle with the two worlds as well and find applications and systems that would work with both, within both. So there was very much Apple versus Windows, you know, debate that always took place. But I very much like the people side and just persuading them, and showing them you know, digital transformation isn't a bad thing. It will really enable you give you power, it will help you collaborate, co-frigging when a lot of people saw co-authoring, you know, you saw your colleague typing on a document at the same time, they were like, wow, oh, my God, this is great. And so and so edited this. So it's just introducing people into that new world and getting them on board. But also bringing them along for the journey as well, which I love. I love that aspect and seeing them change their mind as well in their aspect.
Ian Tailor:It´s Dragging, picking dragging?
Caroline Nicholas:Yes. Some people are very much still entrenched in the 20th century. They didn't want to join this new century.
Mario Cunha:Oh, yeah, definitely. There are those challenges going around? Definitely.
Caroline Nicholas:So yeah, but very much really enjoyable challenge. And it's good to try and, you know, convert those people to what you're doing is for the best, and it will bring efficiency to your work to your study your whatever it things you're doing.
Mario Cunha:Yeah, not just that. I mean, we need to move on and adapt. Right. If you get stuck in time.
Caroline Nicholas:Yeah, we'd still be using Atari as if we hadn't moved over. Commodore 64, you know, and all that.
Mario Cunha:ZX-Spectrum. Oh, yeah.
Caroline Nicholas:Oh, my God. Yes. My brother is one of those. So yeah, technologies move on. And when you think of computers back then, when I had my first computer, and that was quite late, it was about 1998 When I got there, and it was massive, it was like being smuggled in from Bulgaria or something. Arrived in like a box from NASA, it was so big. So we hours to put together etc. So and into what you have now, which is so slick, you know, laptops, tablets, etc, flat screen monitors. So we've really evolved, you know, in all that IT journeys, really.
Mario Cunha:Oh, yeah. And one thing that you did point out was the fact that your son now has available two tablets, as your phone.
Caroline Nicholas:I mean, we'll agree kids are amazing with tech. They just pick up whatever it is your phone, your iPads, and they know it, then he knows how to navigate he went into settings in which I had to grab it from a but it's just amazing. They just got that head they just hardwired It seems this generation to just pick up a tablet or your phone and just go with it and start navigating. So they're very much yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Ian Tailor:I give you two examples of that. What it's what I call a VHS moment.
Mario Cunha:Oh, yes. I like that.
Ian Tailor:My parents could not figure out the VHS video recorder. And to me that simplicity. So I've had two of those moments. And they were kind of in the last year or two. So one wox, Apple did an update and I couldn't see date and timestamp on messages anymore. And I said they must have updated the code. So my daughter took my phone and just went one slide. Second one was connect on my Xbox I was not lucky. I had to phone my son who is 12 years old. I asked him, how is it working?
Mario Cunha:Okay, okay, but don't feel too bad because if you did the other way around, if you get if you give your son, you know a cassette from the Walkman, you know, for audio. And tell him how do those two go together? You could see his face of confusion comming around.
Caroline Nicholas:or an old school phone, or you know, something like that
Ian Tailor:How connect this to your Wi Fi dad?
Mario Cunha:Or better yet? That audio cassette plays a pencil?
Caroline Nicholas:Yes, yes. Yeah. really, absolutely, yeah.
Mario Cunha:All right. All right. This is going well. Okay. Now let's go on to Ian, what can you tell us about yourself?
Ian Tailor:Oh, where do I start? So on the, on the, on the back of Caroline a couple of things I kind of pulled out of when she was talking. So my first computer was a ZX Spectrum 48k. So nice. Yeah, definitely very old school. And also, when you talk about C++, I used to do write some stuff in Basic, and just beeing hack your name in Hello, and then your name came up. Basic was like two lines of code. And then when I did it in C++, it was half a page of code. It was ridiculous, like C++ at all. I am not a hardcore technologist, I have a good understanding of technology. But that's not where my skillset lies. So I am, I've been a project manager for many years to many dimension, I obviously moved into the agile methodologies. I'm a certified scrum master. And my involvement in this company was to come in to try and put the agile practices into play and get some organisational structure around some of the projects and work that we're doing. So I've only been here two weeks. So this is, I'm still finding my way around the company. But so far, it's a very dynamic company. It's extremely friendly. I spent my career working for large financial institutions, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, and I branched out into contracting work for global travel companies, small financial organisations, always doing funnily enough technology, software projects, and putting new teams together, implementing agile and making sure that we deliver the product. So I've had a career of that. And OutSprint seemed at a very interesting junction, we've got some clients and partnerships. And we're at a stage now where we are really growing quite rapidly. And for me that's the interesting part from my contracting days, when you go into the smaller companies, rather than the larger institutions, it's a lot more dynamics a lot more flexible. There's a much better, much, much better sense of community as opposed to, you know, throwing things over the wall to different departments. It's a team, you know, we all are invested in the company. So that's why I came to OutSprint. So it's not necessarily about the technologies. It's more about the company and where it is. So that was my introduction. And so far, bringing structure in an agile for working directly with clients. I'm working with partners, partner ship companies, and we also have a team of highly skilled developers in OutSystems. So far, it's been a fantastic journey. But it's only two weeks, maybe in a later podcast. I'll update further.
Mario Cunha:All right. All right. Well, that's pretty cool, huh? You still have good memories of that spectrum.
Caroline Nicholas:My eldest brother had one. And so I would have a go now and then most of the time, he was biting my hand away because he thought I'd break it, but it was awesome. And we also had an Atari and an Atari 400. And I recall playing for hours basketball, and asteroids. Those are the two games. Yes. And they were just they were just on continuously on the loop. Those were the games you know, and then so my cousin had the Commodore 64 So they were in that camp. And then we were very much on cynic spectrum and we had an Atari at our house. So you know, they were our store sinner in terms of computing and and technology you know, and then you see it evolve and said computer seem to get bigger. I was never a big gamer, so I've never had an Xbox or a ps3 or whatever, you know, things like that. So I've never been a big gamer. Yeah. Ian, are you a massive gamer?
Ian Tailor:No, no, my Xbox profile, if you looked at that, I look amazing. But especially when I first got it, my son just automatically did everything under my profile.
Caroline Nicholas:So you look awesome.
Mario Cunha:So all of those trophies in call of duty are actually from your son, right?
Ian Tailor:He is too young to play those ones, which is interestingly enough. I was absolutely blown away that there was a game that was cross platform. So when we were talking about Macs and you know the Windows kind of options, For me the fact that my son could play it on my laptop or my Xbox on his iPad was just, I thought that was absolutely amazing. I was blown away because it removes that, you know, you're either one stream or the other.
Mario Cunha:Oh, yeah, but that took it's time to come, you know, it's a it's a win that is recent.
Ian Tailor:I I don't play I don't play very much gaming at all. And if I do, I'm only doing car racing. I don't like
Caroline Nicholas:the Mario Kart.
Ian Tailor:You can't get on the Xbox. I'm trying. I have got my son to bring you switch over so I can connect it up and play. Yeah,
Mario Cunha:There you go. Good plan. Good plan.
Caroline Nicholas:The subject of gaming: do people still use Nintendo and Sega because they were like 90s. So it was Nintendo Wii Sega you either have one or the other.
Mario Cunha:Okay, so nowadays Nintendo is quite strong. They have the switch, yeah. Sega, on the hardware department they went kind of burst or ministration basically yeah, so that the last console they made was the Dreamcast.
Caroline Nicholas:That was awesome, like 1999 or something?
Mario Cunha:Yeah, like the 1999, yeah.
Caroline Nicholas:They lost the battle then.
Mario Cunha:They keep on doing mobile games and games for the other consoles. There's quite a few titles from them. Like the Sonic still exists for example.
Caroline Nicholas:Yes, yeah. And he's got movies now. A movie in the cinema of my son may have a mom so, yes, it is still torturing, parents cannot get them away from him. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian Tailor:All right. We've had Pikachu movies..
Mario Cunha:There is a trend here games are starting to cross over to movies.
Caroline Nicholas:Tomb Raider and yeah
Mario Cunha:That was one of my favourites too.
Caroline Nicholas:For the uniform obviously.
Mario Cunha:Before that, it was Indiana Jones but there was nothing like
Caroline Nicholas:he wasn't wearing anything like that so definitely
Mario Cunha:good thing, good thing
Ian Tailor:About the answer, I do agree.
Caroline Nicholas:Yeah
Mario Cunha:There's something about the globe trotting adventures, you know, going all over the world into tombs - while shooting people's heads off. So it's a travel benefit.
Ian Tailor:To to be to well, person it's reminding never talks ...
Mario Cunha:Okay, I guess Lastly, it's my turn speak a bit about me. Okay, what can I say about me? Well, my first console actually was a french computer that I don't remember the name. Okay.
Caroline Nicholas:Good. Let's go go something.
Mario Cunha:Probably Probably, um, I think my first foray with technology was actually with through a Gameboy that I got handed down from my cousin. And that was it. I kind of got into technologies, right. So when, whenever I could, I would get involved. I remember that my parents allowed me to play with what was the name of the IBM computer PS2, I think.
Caroline Nicholas:Oh god. Oh, yes. Yeah. Massive, massive computer. Yeah.
Mario Cunha:Monochromatic screen, I remember. And I remember it had a learning module where they would give you the basics of how a computer would work.
Caroline Nicholas:And yes, how to switch it on. And yeah, that was like doing a degree.
Mario Cunha:Yes. And then from that, it went on from that. I was able to jump onto a X86 platform. I had a 486 computer. And then yeah, and then it just went from there. Always very kind of underpowered. But I was able to find emulators, games that would still run. I got into Pascal, my first development was with Pascal, I remember those.
Caroline Nicholas:Yeah,my God, that's hard core programming that sort of that.
Mario Cunha:I remember I tried to do some web pages because it was the, you know, that was the latest thing. Let's do a web page. Just went from there. You know, high school, I took a specific course on technology instead of doing the general. And then college computer science. And then after that, OutSystems.
Caroline Nicholas:So you propper peaked out, you are the full techie. You probably joined Computer Club in High School if you had that.
Mario Cunha:Idid not hat Computer Club in the high school, but in Pre High School, we did have an I did join it. Yes.
Caroline Nicholas:Wow. You've seen the time you where like, you know, you definitely would be in that club, Yeah.
Mario Cunha:So yeah, fresh out of university, I got, I got the amazing opportunity to do an internship for an OutSystems partner. And I've been with OutSystems ever since. And then that has been a great ride. It took me to London, now Berlin. And it gave me an excellent opportunity to work in a big variety of projects and meet some amazing people along the way, you know, and now OutSprint, you know, where is this going to lead us? Where is this gonna take us?
Caroline Nicholas:What is your next big vision in terms of either within the OutSystems platform or branching into something else? Do you have a next stage that you want to develop? Or you know, discover?
Mario Cunha:Yeah, personally, I've always been intrigued with VR. And I know that it's getting a certain momentum now. So I would definitely, probably next year, you know, beginning of next year, I will invest in some equipment, some gear and I'll try to do some VR related side projects, you know, just to get the brain juices flowing.
Caroline Nicholas:A new challenge and something new to learn and discover.
Mario Cunha:But one thing that you mentioned, and I do agree with you at it, although this is very techie, and it's very interesting, we must never forget the people side of things, which is something I really like also. I never was kind of keen on getting into an office, getting into my corner, do whatever text tasks that would come into JIRA, and just go home at the end of the day, or go have a couple of pints at the end of the day. Now it's so that interaction with your colleagues, getting up, going to their place, oh, I'm having this trouble. Why is this not working, or how can we solve this? You know, all the social?
Caroline Nicholas:Yeah, social interaction, while problem solving and looking at solutions, that kind of thing. And not forgetting the end user, which is, a lot of, you know, technical people do tend to do, they talk in their jargon, they've got their tech speak. But then they forget that sometimes they're talking to someone who doesn't really have a clue about what they're about. So you know, and the person's looking blankly back at them, and not understanding anything that people sides and always drawing back to that element.
Ian Tailor:I think the key things in my role, just to add on to this, is translating what the user wants, or what the client wants into something that technology will understand and then translating it back to them. And you also, you always have to have your eyes on, you know, what are the goals? Where are we heading with this, because if you don't share the big picture, then if you work with technologies that are just working on a small, small piece, and don't understand how it fits into the bigger picture, it can be tomorrow's point, it can be quite a lonely, not really understanding, you know, how this thing fits together? What value am I adding to this project? We don't have any visuals on where we're going. And you know what it is we're trying to achieve? Yeah, always setting, you know, the goals of what we're trying to achieve, what is the value of it? What benefit are we going to bring to our clients? And if we can't do that as a team, then I think that's one of the failing points. That's very important.
Caroline Nicholas:Of course, yeah, I mean, then talking about IT guys, I say guys in general, because usually it's dominantly guys, but when I worked in IT departments and you sort of go up to the SQL guy, and he looks at you like you're an alien, because you're not may to talk to him, you know, you're even though you're 10 metres away from him and he's like, well, you're at my desk and you know, you could have could have asked me by email and etc, for sort of, you know, so they're getting a bit more interactive and more social, etc. You know, especially in departments where once they were just in the corner coding for hours on end now they do actually talk to people, you know, so they're evolving like cavemen change throughout the ages. And they're more social now. You know, they go out for drinks and everything.
Mario Cunha:Yeah, you know, who was it? Who could have tell that? There are a couple of fights at the end of the day.
Ian Tailor:Hardcore, you know, right at the edge technologies for this, aren't they? Yes, they've they've evolved past cavemen now. This is good.
Mario Cunha:The one thing that I really enjoyed was not picking up on the on Ian's comment on agile was actually, you know, when we do the scrums? Yes, one thing that I really enjoy is when we have, you know, a fairly medium project and you have like one or two developers, you have your project manager, you have your business analyst, and suddenly you have the developer discussing a problem directly with the business analyst, or even the marketing team, and you kind of like cut the middle, the middleman, you know, and the message does not get lost, because now everyone is in on the same level, everyone understands what is happening. And that social part, you can't be introvert, you have to be willing to communicate, talk with people and you know, be there for them whenever it's necessary. Because when you reach the part where you're supposed to be testing, now you've created that connection. Now, it's not as awkward as Caroline was saying, you already go to the SQL guy and go like, yeah, right. So we need to make a data fix now. Now you can go. Remember that user story, it kind of went wrong, Can you help me? You know, it's different.
Caroline Nicholas:They don't just come to you anymore. Like they used to back in the days.
Mario Cunha:Or so incident emails, why? Why do you need me on this meeting? I don't need do either.
Caroline Nicholas:Exactly. It was always the second guys and guys who just skipped meetings, so they were just never there. And you know, you someone would never met? Well, where are you ect., I didn't think I needed to be here. You know, you're invited. So that was sort of the standard response we used to get.
Ian Tailor:There's a waiting for the requirements and waiting for people to, you know, the business side of it. And to be honest, I tend to at the start of any project, I pull in everyone that's involved. So they actually even if it's just for the first meeting, so they understand the direction we're taking, everyone knows everyone, you get people on the ground floor. And then also it kind of always prepares them because they know work is coming down the pipeline. And they know about it, they were involved in the initial discussions. The other thing is trust in a good scrum team, you must have trust. So speaking up, you must be able to trust your team, you can speak up and, you know, be heard and discuss ideas. And it's not a place to be shy, you know, the idea is that we move, you know, at pace to deliver as quickly as possible. So transparency and trust are the two key things that need to be in there, and there are more the softer side of it, as opposed to outside of the actual development or the management or, you know, managing sprints or scrums, it's getting the team to have that level of trust, and that level of openness. So they're the kind of softer side of it that I find is very important.
Mario Cunha:Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, that could be the size of between a good environment to work in with working on an environment to a certain level of tension. That's not necessarily bad, but you know, that it's there, and you kind of go like, I really don't want to go in to that meeting. I really don't want to go with talk with my colleague at this moment. You know, it's not that it's bad, that just there's a little bit of, you know, grinding. Yeah, calibration.
Ian Tailor:Not potentionally on this call, but with obviously, COVID pandemic that's going on. I mean, most people are working remotely as well. So, I mean, Scrum teams can be disparate, and, you know, all over the globe. But without that, you know, sometimes you just need to get together in a room face to face and to discuss and trust things out. And it's a challenge to do everything remotely, it does remove that kind of chats that there's now you have to, you know, pick up one of the messaging services and kind of actually reach out someone to talk to them. So, if you missed that, you know, I need to call someone because I need information. And what you don't get is that sense of, we're a team and I'm just checking in, how're you doing? What are you working on, you know, just generally banging ideas about between the team? And that's a challenge that I suppose most companies are facing.
Mario Cunha:Yeah, good point. Yeah. Good point. That's actually an element that we don't have nowadays because of the pandemic, right. I mean, it's like you said It's that that coffee talk when you go and fetch your first coffee in the morning, and you have a couple of colleagues there, oh so, how it was yesterday, and you just, you know, if you're a little bit nerdy, you kind of go, oh, yeah, yesterday, I started working on this little bit of a project, and I'm hoping I can fix it or do this or do that, and someone can give you some insight, or not, you know, it's all of those little interactions that make going into the office profitable.
Caroline Nicholas:Yes, I mean, it's great, what we can do remotely, and we, as a company, I've been able to function and get on and on board, so many new people, you know, in the last couple of months, but you do miss that interaction. And there are things that may be unsaid, or that can be miscommunicated, you know, within chat portals or what have you. And, you know, that's not what I meant, but it came across a bit aggressive or etc. Whereas if you've had that face to face interaction, you know, the person would have got the point and you know, no offence taken etc. Yeah.
Ian Tailor:..Technologists, I didn't take the caveman to heart.
Caroline Nicholas:I offended a legion of technologists.
Mario Cunha:I'm sure they will like us. So don't mind.
Caroline Nicholas:Please subscribe. Yeah.
Mario Cunha:Love it on cue. One thing I think we could help our listeners to understand is talk a bit about us and a bit more about us and how we connect with OutSprint and low code. So how does low code binds us in OutSprint? I can start myself because I was the last one to present. So like I said, I'm a developer slash trainer. And I've been using low code OutSystems, mainly since ever I finished my university. And that's pretty much it. Making headaches for everyone else. From the project manager to the end user.
Caroline Nicholas:I mean, my low code exposure is very minimal. Tiago showed me how to put together some low codes. The other day, he was asking about etc. And even let me show you the put some expressions together. This is how simple it is, you know, and it is and I thought actually thought about this and put my head down and actually studied it, I'm sure I could cobble something, it may work, may not work. But it was just, I mean, I explained to a friend about low code, because he asked the way you work, etc. And he says, oh, yeah, it's like coding for the masses. You know, that was his take on it, you know, making coding easy. And I said, Well, steady on, we don't want it too easy, because we want you to pay for our services. So retract that, but yeah, he sort of got the gist of it in terms of what it aims to do. You know, is that your understanding of it? Is that how you view it, Mario?
Mario Cunha:No, so I think your friend picked it up from one of the latest trends, which is called Citizen development. And because there is a lack of developers for for the current digital transformation that is happening within the companies in the business streams. People need the technology, but there are not enough developers to provide that technology for them. So low code, or even no code at all, is being pushing forward, what is called the citizen development. And that is, so imagine that you have a business analyst that is controlling, I don't know something inside of your company using an Excel sheet, right? What these technologies allow is to go from that Excel sheet to a controlled environment by your IT department, and allow them to have a software that is available for everyone now, and it follows some standards. And it allows them to reach their objective with that they were doing with that Excel sheet. So yeah, there is that component, but for myself, low code is more on the lines that we can build whatever you would do with .NET Java, just a lot faster, you know.
Caroline Nicholas:So it´s been stream lined. Sorry.
Ian Tailor:Yeah, I was gonna say, and you can do it at enterprise level as well.
Mario Cunha:Yes, no, that's actually a good point. Because that's something that usually it's left out of the equation when explaining it to someone and then the image is, oh, yeah, so now you can do internal apps. So only for the internal use of the application of the company. Sorry, and that's it. But no, it's whatever you can picture, whatever you can imagine. Move multi tenant scenarios integrating with, I don't know, a different identity providers, Google Maps, whatever, you can come up with Salesforce, SAP, you can do it. And you know, sky's the limit, and it´s faster.
Ian Tailor:I actually find one of the things now, I mean, we can develop at pace. And it's kind of simplified or rather than starting from scratch it, we've got something as a baseline, I think one of the things and I'm just going back to the kind of fortnight, I think the connectivity between all of these apps, and utilising services that are already there, that for me is kind of key and where the benefits are. We can build things, but they need to be integrated and connected with everything else that's already out there. And if we can do that, then you know, we have something that as you say, there's no limit to it. We can just keep bolting onto it. That's how I see it.
Mario Cunha:Definitely, definitely. Yeah, right. I would say this has been a good session, we're coming close to our time is anything else you guys would like to share, say?
Caroline Nicholas:No, not at present. We'll save that for the next one. But I've loved everyone's journeys, you know, from IT geek or wherever you started to present days. So thank you, Mario, thank you Ian.
Mario Cunha:Then let's wrap this up today. Please join us on our next episode of high tech low code podcast, where we will feature our first guest and we will approach the subject of women in tech industry. Thank you, okay, we're off. Thank you guys.